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Question: Do you think INT class got more Favors / Advantages as compared to AGI and STR Classes?
Yes (please provide reason in post for your vote).
No (please provide reason in post for your vote).
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Author Topic: INT is most favored class as compared to AGI and STR  (Read 24631 times)
HaTE
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on: August 22, 2015, 03:15:51 PM

So this post is in continuation of my other post and I have decided to make a separate post for the subject issue because we're entering into Round 62 and still there's one class heavily favored as compared to other classes.

Now this thread is not just all about complaints. I have tried to provide "solution" of every problem mentioned below. Positive discussion is always welcome but if you're not providing any reason in your post then I'd ignore your post / reply completely.


1 - ITEMS:
There's an item that provides 3 Turns protection (Item name is Shiva Guard and it provides 30 INT and 30 Armor). Evidently, only INT class is taking advantage of such item. Such 3 turns protection is not offered in any item for AGI and STR classes. One would say that AGI and STR got other items to protect them for example Butterfly and BKB.

  • 1st of all both Butterfly and BKB do not give you "Turns protection". That luxury is available to INT class only
  • 2ndly, Butterfly is effective VS other AGI and other STR heroes, INT class got nothing to worry about Butterfly but Shiva Guard item provides protection to INT from "ALL the classes" rather then "Selective Classes"
  • 3rdly, BKB provides protection vs INT class only and vs AGI / STR class BKB is again useless. So the items offered to AGI and STR are not providing "Equal" benefit as compared to Shiva Guard (i.e. INT Item).

Solution(s): Provide similar benefit to AGI and STR class that is effective vs ALL other classes rather than just "Selective" classes. Or remove 3 turns protection for INT because it's clearly out of balance.

2a - RETURN DAMAGE (i.e. the damage you receive whenever you attack an enemy):
AGI and STR always receive some amount of damage whenever they attack other enemies. However the SPECIAL "INT" class can attack you in your face without facing any "resistance" at all. It's like they're attacking sitting ducks and our AGI / STR with full slots of items just smiling at them while under attack. This is again giving a huge favor to INT class. I admit the return damage to INT class will have a very minor change in the game-play but it'll make more sense and bring all the classes on same "page".

Solution(s): INT class should receive some return damage when they attack other classes. This will force INT class to STOP their rampage and heal themselves (i.e. using their mana) making them manage their "mana" efficiently.

2b - DYING FROM RETURN DAMAGE (i.e. the damage you receive whenever you attack an enemy):
There is a potential risk of dying from Return Damage and Losing 90% of your Gold for AGI and STR heroes. But guess what, INT class is ONCE AGAIN given luxury to ignore this risk completely. I hope we all agree that losing 90% gold is a big risk but as per current game mechanics, this risk is only for AGI and STR.

Solution(s): INT class should receive some return damage when they attack other classes. This will also include INT class to be in the risk zone where they 'can' lose 90% gold.

3 - ASSIST FEATURE:
Assist feature is great and it emphasis on teamwork. However, the Assist feature revolves around "INT" class only. For example, give me any case scenario where AGI and STR are assisting each-other. No, it will always have "INT" in the equation or else there's no assistance at all.

To elaborate the above example, you'll see assistance in the form of:

  • Case 1 -  AGI or STR burned enemy's mana then INT killed the victim. Results = AGI OR STR is assistant and INT is killer
  • Case 2 -  INT is sundering a target and then the target is killed by AGI or STR. Results = INT is assistant and AGI OR STR is killer

As you can see, there is no such case where there is no "INT" in the "Assisting" equation. Thus assisting feature revolves around this INT class. Other AGI and STR classes alone can't enjoy assistance feature as well as the INT class. Again giving INT class an edge and luxury that other classes don't have.

Solution(s): We have given INT class so much utility and power that without them (at late game) it will be hard to kill anyone. Solving this problem is not easy as it will require to change the game mechanics. If there's an INT helping you killing someone then that's an EASY kill as compared to killing someone on your own. But the fact remains the same it'll be always AGI + INT or STR + INT in the equation. It will never be (or very very very extremely rare cases) AGI + STR in the equation. I am not able to provide a better solution for this problem so we can always discuss and address this problem in educated manner.

4 - WHAT AGI/STR CAN DO IN MULTIPLE TURNS, INT CAN DO IT IN JUST "1":
As mentioned in my other post, INT class is the "ONLY" class that has the luxury to do "Most" out of "1" turn.

  • INT can damage 50% HP in just "1 Turn". It will take at-least 3 to 4 turns for AGI or STR to damage someone for 50% HP
  • INTs have the risk of wasting only "1 Turn", in no circumstances they'll be wasting "consecutive" turns. AGI or STR always have the risk of wasting multiple turns blocked by Butter or Manasheild
  • INTs can heal themselves for FULL hp with just "1 turn". Thanks to Sunder
  • INTs can full their mana pool with just "1 turn". Thanks to Sunder

As stated above, at late game, every class is receiving same amount of turns but INT is the only class that can do "most" out of given turns shaking the balance between classes.

Solution(s): Make Sunder a 3 Turns spell. Then it'll take INTs to use 3 turns to damage somebody for 50% HP. It'll take them 3 turns to make their HP / Mana full. Having such luxuries on cost of "1" turn is insane. Hands down. Making Sunder consume 3 turns will balance the INT class with AGI and STR who got risk of wasting "multiple" turns because fo butter etc..

5 - LESS RISK, HIGHER REWARD:
This game's life blood is "Turns". And as mentioned in above point # 4, INT class can do most out of given turns as compared to AGI and STR classes. This make INT the only class having the luxury of "Less Risk, Higher Reward".

  • Case 1 - When AGI and / or STR are attacking an INT with Butter, bypassing the "Mana Shield" always risks multiple turns to be blocked by Butter. They cannot ask anyone to do something to have that Butterfly disabled.
  • Case 2 -  On the other hand, INT class attacking other Classes can risk wasting only 1 turn by BKB. As soon as INT class realizes that victim got BKB, they would ask STR or AGI to burn the mana to have "Guaranteed" kill. Such "Guarantee" is never available to AGI or STR. Even if they ask for "Sunder" help, the butter will always be a factor to have multiple turns blocked / missed.
  • Case 3 -  In 1v1 situations such as AGI vs AGI, AGI VS STR or STR vs STR, in each situation it'll take 6 to 12 turns (taking Defensive items into consideration) to secure a kill. But in situations like INT vs AGI, INT vs STR, INT vs INT, in each situation it takes 4 to 8 turns (thanks to the OP Sunder spell)

Solution(s): We must make BKB and AEGIS work like Butterfly i.e. independent of Mana. When we burn mana, BKB and AEGIS become useless. But Butterfly remains effective even with full / none Mana. The fact that BKB and AEGIS can be "Disabled" completely is again giving INT class a powerful edge over other classes.

6 - MANAGING ITEMS and ITEMS' BALANCING:
Currently INT class can take benefit from other classes' defensive items. For example, INT class can make butter. Even though they don't need butter's bonus (i.e. 30 Attack + 30 Agility) except 15% evasion. But why making butter is useful for INT or STR class is just because we need AGI to get more turns / cycle and it is already expressed that "Turns" are life blood of this game.

Solution(s):  A radical solution is to make turns / cycle based on "Primary" stat. For example, AGI can get more turns per cycle by increasing their AGI, STR should get more turns by Increasing STR and INTs should get more turns by increasing INT. This way, INT and STR classes have to waste one slot just to buy Butter because in current game mechanics, buying butter is beneficial to all classes since they all want more turns / cycle.

7 - NOT JUST 1 OR 2 OR 3 BUT ALL OF THEM HAVE IT:
Previous round (i.e. Round 61), Panda had 500% damage based on his and enemy's STR stat from level 1. We all know how well that ended up. Now clearly that uniqueness was "Broken" but imagine giving such uniqueness not just to 1 Hero, but to all the STR. Yeah it will be pretty crazy right?

But wait, we have one spell that is also broken as hell and it's not even a UNIQUE spell. Yeah you guessed it. It's Sunder Spell. It would make a-lot more sense if we give this spell as a uniqueness to a particular Hero but guess what, ALL THE INT GOT ACCESS TO THIS SPELL. So all the INT got the power to make 50% HP disappear. Wow that's really something.

If we look into real DoTA roots, the Sunder spell does not even belong to INT class. I just can't understand the reason behind favoring this class so much. Has nobody spoken in last 60 rounds? Please try as many tests are you want but as long Sunder Spell exists, INT will always be having at-least 7 spots in top 10 rankings (history of each match is substantial evidence).

Solution(s):  A spell that can damage up to 50% HP in just "1" turn should not be given to "ALL" Ints. I mean whenever we're selecting AGI or STR we take uniqueness into consideration. That uniqueness goes a long way (till round ends) but when you're picking INT, uniqueness doesn't matter because it's "SUNDER" that's you're looking for, uniqueness becomes secondary. So a proper solution would be to give Sunder Spell to a specific Hero (should be AGI not INT because Sunder spell in real dota belongs to AGI). Let's give it a try. We had a broken round 61 that gave us positive feedback so why not give this suggestion a try and see the end result?

Another solution is to give every class Sunder spell because let's face it, INT is not the only class having problem killing 50k HP STR (although I haven't seen 50K HP STR yet), all other classes like AGI and STR are also having difficulties killing those 50K STR. So give it to all. Yes do it.


So that's it for now, I will be back with more points..

Please let your opinion be heard. As mentioned in the poll, if you don't have a reason to vote YES or NO then please don't vote. The whole point of this thread is "productive discussion" because having INT top 7 (on average) ranks in almost every round is suggesting that something's not fair, something's needed a fix.
Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 01:43:45 PM by HaTE Logged

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Lazybone21
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Reply #1 on: August 22, 2015, 03:49:48 PM

I do agree with u.No point to complain.
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HaTE
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Reply #2 on: August 22, 2015, 05:27:06 PM

Guys votes without providing reasons don't count Cheesy. People are voting "NO" and not providing any reason Cheesy.
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tamtam
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Reply #3 on: August 22, 2015, 07:04:18 PM

i agree with number 6. haha Wink Tongue
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Lazybone21
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Reply #4 on: August 22, 2015, 07:26:05 PM

Guys votes without providing reasons don't count Cheesy. People are voting "NO" and not providing any reason Cheesy.

done
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unoZ
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Reply #5 on: August 22, 2015, 09:21:55 PM

Here's my opinion.. As noob AM player who plays on 2 last rd, I still have difficult to kill int hero..
However at lvl 4 up..
1. About Mana shield: When int have around 8K-10K mana, I must take turns around 4-5  to burn their mana first  to make 0 *in case if its constant get 300% mana burn from damage (If my damage around 600-800 at lvl 4).
This is not the end.. Bf works good still can waste my turns too..  Waste around 2-4turns.. Total. Around= 6-9 turns.. To kill rest int hp need around 3 turns on normal condition (if int bf not work & int hp around 3K). Total = around 9-11. See.. Of course AM should be easy to kill Int on Real DoTa. But not on WD, if only give assist,  AM so damn good to make Str or other Agi hero make 0 mana in 1 -2 turns only + dmg . But to mana burn Int hero.. Its so wasting turns.. Usually I let not to kill Int. Better looking to kill Agi, bcoz that's need less turns. Around 4-5 turns (if bf works) around 3 turns only (if bf not works)
2. About Items 3 turns to protec: see.. my suffer wasting turns for mana burns still not the end.. Cheesy.
3. About sunder, actually  now will more better, just left the enemy 50% that's sounds good news to Str & Agi. But when appears new spell : Reaper, it will be trouble.. Let's we seee on rd 62 Cheesy
4. Beside of that.. Agi still gambling with handling DR, its droppable when killed  Sad
8K gold for 1 DR, if handling 2 & drop both of them, its suck.. Burning gold 16K. Agi without DR on early games will cry.
5. Agree with u, when Int realize & knows if I have bkb & aegis, they will ask to their clanmates AM or Str who's handling diffusal attack me on 1-2  turns to make my mana 0. Its means my bkb & aegis will not work 100%. Rest.. Int will cast me spell DC or Gush till I die Sad   even when AM have spell resist 40%. Will die on 6-7 spell.

 Grin
That's my opinion bro HaTE Smiley
Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 10:12:07 PM by unoZ Logged



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Reply #6 on: August 22, 2015, 10:13:21 PM

All I want to change is just bkb
If bkb need no mana, same effect like bf
So make bkb lv4 item and raise the price of recipe
And lower chance to around 20% e no mana
It can prevent multi for mana burn too
How?
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unoZ
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Reply #7 on: August 22, 2015, 10:26:27 PM

All I want to change is just bkb
If bkb need no mana, same effect like bf
So make bkb lv4 item and raise the price of recipe
And lower chance to around 20% e no mana
It can prevent multi for mana burn too
How?
Sounds good Smiley but will more good if bkb & aegis no need mana too, like bf  Smiley
Let the % be same like now.. It will still have chance to make damage on target & can die.. Just depend on % & lucky.
Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 10:31:27 PM by unoZ Logged



Street Man
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Reply #8 on: August 22, 2015, 10:34:55 PM

All I want to change is just bkb
If bkb need no mana, same effect like bf
So make bkb lv4 item and raise the price of recipe
And lower chance to around 20% e no mana
It can prevent multi for mana burn too
How?
Sounds good Smiley but will more good if bkb & aegis no need mana too, like bf  Smiley
Let the % be same like now.. It will still have chance to make damage on target & can die.. Just depend on % & lucky.
I don't want to change agis bcoz we build agis not only for revive but also for Amor and magic resit too
If we change agis, AM and db user will be effected
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unoZ
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Reply #9 on: August 22, 2015, 10:49:22 PM

All I want to change is just bkb
If bkb need no mana, same effect like bf
So make bkb lv4 item and raise the price of recipe
And lower chance to around 20% e no mana
It can prevent multi for mana burn too
How?
Sounds good Smiley but will more good if bkb & aegis no need mana too, like bf  Smiley
Let the % be same like now.. It will still have chance to make damage on target & can die.. Just depend on % & lucky.
I don't want to change agis bcoz we build agis not only for revive but also for Amor and magic resit too
If we change agis, AM and db user will be effected
Its make sense.. & will a lot people get revive Cheesy
Ok, let the others give opinion & let LOD works as properly needed Smiley
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HaTE
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Reply #10 on: August 22, 2015, 11:33:32 PM

To even the odds, as suggested as a possible "Solution" in my original post, one must make BKB and AEGIS independent of mana. Even if they need 10 mana to block / revive, the fact is both of these items can be completely "Disabled".

So either let Aegis and BKB work even with no mana or make Butterfly mana dependent too.

It's not even fair that protection vs physical attacks CANNOT be disabled but TWO protections vs spells CAN BE disabled. What is this? Clearly a disadvantage for AGI and STR class.

I request once again for proper "Balance". INTs are given huge advantages and that's why they're always having 7 to 8 positions in top 10 rankings.

Also @ brother unoZ, you have given example of "Antimage" who got unique ability to burn mana. But think of those who don't have such uniqueness, those AGI heroes need more turns as per your example.

The age of INT shall come to an end. Enough is enough.
Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 11:36:31 PM by HaTE Logged

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Lazybone21
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Reply #11 on: August 22, 2015, 11:47:36 PM

In Webdota AM become great food or fruit  Sad for Intls even with 40% spell resistance.Better call IF(intls food). Tongue
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HaTE
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Reply #12 on: August 23, 2015, 01:44:54 PM

Added Point # 7 - i.e.  NOT JUST 1 OR 2 OR 3 BUT ALL OF THEM HAVE IT.

Thank you for your honest voting guys. Those who voted NO I want to hear their opinion. Why hiding Cheesy?
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torque
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Reply #13 on: August 23, 2015, 02:25:54 PM

I think it is quite obvious that the INTs are generally overpowered during Late Game.

Yes, they have trouble creeping. Yes, they have a much harder time to level up early on.

But once all those 2 setbacks are dealt with, they dominate so easily. For AGIs and STRs, it becomes harder as we go up.

I think what should be difficult is the early game instead of late game for all hero types.

I  think this is due to 4 factors:
Quote
1 - the innate low defense rate against magic damage (yey for INTs!)
2 - the magic damage increment is equal to that of physical damage (yey for INTs!)
3 - the mere existence of manashield (yey for INTs!)
4 - INTs only need to increase INT points and they will have better damage and defense in the long run. (yey for INTs!)

For number 1, magic damage deals a very good amount of damage thanks to the low defense rate against it. AGIs suffer from this. STRs virtually have nothing against it until they got planeswalker's cloak or HoD or if you are using Tidehunter or Anti-Mage.

Number 2, magic damage increases as INT points go up. But this is also true for STRs when they increase STR pts. AGIs rely on training and items. This makes them even with STRs early on since INTs get like 3 to 4 euls and STR will go for 3 to 4 belts. AGIs need to get DR, even more DRs then other damage items like Buriza then lots of Backstab training.

For 3, manashield makes the difference. STRs need to increase hp to make them difficult to kill. AGIs need armor. INTs need to increase mp. YES, manashield will eat up the INT's mana. But there is no other efficient way to do this other than relying on mana burning spells and attacks. By late game, evasion makes it even harder to kill them.  All in all, INTs have the most defense mechanics among all hero types.  

And for number 4, increasing INT points and it is a much better investment for them in the long run. STRs increasing STR pts? They become easier targets for Panda and Naix, in addition to INTs. AGIs? You have SF to deal with any of them in addition to INTs.
Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 02:32:46 PM by torque Logged

HaTE
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Reply #14 on: August 23, 2015, 03:17:27 PM

I think all the classes have difficulties leveling up at level 1 and 2.

But all of them have certain advantages.

For example:

  • STRs are making HP so they won't die (yet they do) while they keep attacking others (because killing will not be an option for all STR except for some with uniqueness) or wait for somebody to get level 2 and attack them to get extra experience. I've seen plenty of players that have no kill but they're level 3.
  • AGIs have similar story as STR. But they have "More Turns" advantage. AGI can get 2 turns per cycle faster than any other class, so if they follow the same path as STR, they can get leveled up easily without having a kill.
  • INTs have potential to level faster too. Basically at level 1, STR, AGI and INT are same thing. But the advantage INTs got, they can heal and get experience. This enables them to have get "sustain" experience.

So to reply your points:
1 - the innate low defense rate against magic damage (yey for INTs!)
This will again favor INT class. Instead we can let INTS have double the experience (or increase the ratio of experience gain) from healing. Just like attacking a higher level target will give you more Experience, healing a higher level target should give more experience. Also the healing experience can be adjusted as: Healing an already full HP target will give you less experience but healing a wounded target will give you more experience. This will compensate early game struggle for INTs.

2 - the magic damage increment is equal to that of physical damage (yey for INTs!)
Same as above. We are trying to take "powers" from INT not to double the powers :p. At level 1, STR got advantage of some HP so they can stay alive and keep gaining experience, AGIs have more turns advantage and INT's advantage is healing (also they can use basic attacks just like STR and AGI).

3 - the mere existence of manashield (yey for INTs!)
At early game everyone is conscious about turns consumption. At level 1, if you attack a target and it's blocked by mana sheild, I don't think you'll attack again. To help INT class manage MANA at early levels, we can make healing consume less mana if the target is wounded. But takes normal amount of mana when healing already full target.

4 - INTs only need to increase INT points and they will have better damage and defense in the long run. (yey for INTs!)
This is already a fact. More INT stats give increased Magic damage. As mentioned here http://webdota.net/guide.php :

  • Each point of Intelligence gives you 70 mana points.
  • Intelligence determines your spell success rate and spell damage.
  • Intelligence also determines your healing effectiveness.

I also want to mention (again) that the defenses available to INT class are more reliable than defenses given to AGI and / or STR classes (see my point # 5 in original post).

Bottom line: If it is difficult for INTs to level up early game, then let's give "Healing" some love and gain more experience. There is more than 1 way to balance a game. Balancing doesn't necessarily means to give power to one class and let other classes suffer. Instead a more convenient and suitable approach will be to make a change that doesn't harm other classes (i.e. give more experience via healing at early levels).

Lastly, thank you for bringing up valid points  Smiley.
Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 03:32:06 PM by HaTE Logged

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