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Author Topic: Round 62F - Changes & Discussion  (Read 35096 times)
zHaKkAs
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Reply #15 on: September 07, 2015, 04:33:35 PM

  • Terror will not work against Agility heroes and no return damage will now work on consecutive attacks

Hi LOD,

Decreasing the mana of Terror by from 500 to 200 makes the AGI heroes killing themselves.
Now, we are solving it by making Terror only works definitely against INT  types? This is totally not good at all.

We need to come up a better balancing solution. Right now, we can't kill both STR and INT with huge HP and Mana even with late game items. Agi heroes are time bound. They cannot compete well because of time controlled laning system. Before we have our items, lanes are already about to close. And we cannot approximate how much effort we need because of the possibility of all lanes being closed already. If it's fixed, then we can plan ahead how to build our heroes.

The only hero type that AGI can kill is AGI as well. Terror is fine as long as the mana requirement is average (400-500). So that we cannot spam it against AGI. If this spell will no longer work against AGI, it's more totally imbalance. We cannot kill all types of heroes already!

STR heroes can kill all types.
INT heroes can do the same.
AGI is totally left behind!

OD will likely to be implemented tier level uniqueness as suggested here.

The feedback I received from here, is that, we try, try not to nerf any class but improve the weak side.

I have some questions for the floor,

  • If everyone agree that STR and INT can kill all types, what kind of improvement would you see toward a Class (Agility), not specified hero?
  • Agility heroes have better item efficiency at early start, 20% magic resistance by nature and faster turns, if AGI cannot kill, can they die easily?

Sometimes I feel bad that seems like I have made Agility heroes the man behind or a must have hero in Clan build.

As I already suggested LOD make Agility heroes agile a bit by giving them evasion by increasing Agility like every 10agi giving 1% evasion  maxed to 30 like this they have defense against str/agi right from the start . And int defense you already given to agi's .Also this will help in giving agi's  extra for items because they don't need to buy butterfly anymore and they can now buy more items making them more stinger. .
Other you can do is removing orb effect of MJ because due to this agi's cannt take other orbs . Make MJ limit to one for one player and remove lighting orb and give MJ 5 damage for 1 agi point...
Thanks..
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StTomato
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Reply #16 on: September 07, 2015, 04:37:02 PM

  • Terror will not work against Agility heroes and no return damage will now work on consecutive attacks

Hi LOD,

Decreasing the mana of Terror by from 500 to 200 makes the AGI heroes killing themselves.
Now, we are solving it by making Terror only works definitely against INT  types? This is totally not good at all.

We need to come up a better balancing solution. Right now, we can't kill both STR and INT with huge HP and Mana even with late game items. Agi heroes are time bound. They cannot compete well because of time controlled laning system. Before we have our items, lanes are already about to close. And we cannot approximate how much effort we need because of the possibility of all lanes being closed already. If it's fixed, then we can plan ahead how to build our heroes.

The only hero type that AGI can kill is AGI as well. Terror is fine as long as the mana requirement is average (400-500). So that we cannot spam it against AGI. If this spell will no longer work against AGI, it's more totally imbalance. We cannot kill all types of heroes already!

STR heroes can kill all types.
INT heroes can do the same.
AGI is totally left behind!

OD will likely to be implemented tier level uniqueness as suggested here.

The feedback I received from here, is that, we try, try not to nerf any class but improve the weak side.

I have some questions for the floor,

  • If everyone agree that STR and INT can kill all types, what kind of improvement would you see toward a Class (Agility), not specified hero?
  • Agility heroes have better item efficiency at early start, 20% magic resistance by nature and faster turns, if AGI cannot kill, can they die easily?

Sometimes I feel bad that seems like I have made Agility heroes the man behind or a must have hero in Clan build.

As I already suggested LOD make Agility heroes agile a bit by giving them evasion by increasing Agility like every 10agi giving 1% evasion  maxed to 30 like this they have defense against str/agi right from the start . And int defense you already given to agi's .Also this will help in giving agi's  extra for items because they don't need to buy butterfly anymore and they can now buy more items making them more stinger. .
Other you can do is removing orb effect of MJ because due to this agi's cannt take other orbs . Make MJ limit to one for one player and remove lighting orb and give MJ 5 damage for 1 agi point...
Thanks..

i didnt agree with x AGI give x Evasion for 2 reasons:
1. complicated math
2. OP evasion
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zinhtet
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Reply #17 on: September 07, 2015, 04:49:37 PM

How about changing terror to cause dmg base on agi points instead of armor reduction. (e.g  2/3/4 dmg based on agi point)
Agi have to balance hp,armor and dmg and can't go one way like str and intl do. Above changes might solve the problem of agi.
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lonelykidz
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Reply #18 on: September 07, 2015, 04:49:55 PM

  • Terror will not work against Agility heroes and no return damage will now work on consecutive attacks

Hi LOD,

Decreasing the mana of Terror by from 500 to 200 makes the AGI heroes killing themselves.
Now, we are solving it by making Terror only works definitely against INT  types? This is totally not good at all.

We need to come up a better balancing solution. Right now, we can't kill both STR and INT with huge HP and Mana even with late game items. Agi heroes are time bound. They cannot compete well because of time controlled laning system. Before we have our items, lanes are already about to close. And we cannot approximate how much effort we need because of the possibility of all lanes being closed already. If it's fixed, then we can plan ahead how to build our heroes.

The only hero type that AGI can kill is AGI as well. Terror is fine as long as the mana requirement is average (400-500). So that we cannot spam it against AGI. If this spell will no longer work against AGI, it's more totally imbalance. We cannot kill all types of heroes already!

STR heroes can kill all types.
INT heroes can do the same.
AGI is totally left behind!

You are wrong, agi hero can kill int hero in 2 hit with terror if not evaded by butterfly at late game if you are AM or 3 hit if you are other agi hero type. At level 4 with mjilnor, if you are AM you can break any mana shield with one hit terror. If you are any other agi hero, just use 2 consecutive hit with terror the mana shield will be gone.
Generally at level 4 int hero mana is around 10-11k. Agi hero damage with terror will be around 900-1200. 2 hit = 2400 dmg, will burn around 9600 mana. Thus the 3rd hit the mana shield will not working anymore.
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killua
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Reply #19 on: September 07, 2015, 04:51:13 PM

AGI vs STR/INT - We need to have an item or "ability enhancement" that will work individually, only against STR or INT types but not BOTH. Any idea to increase the damage output directly  for agi heroes just to catch up on STR's high HP and INT's MP capability @ end game will be imbalance.

The only issue when we attack STR/INT at late game is that they already have huge HP/MP and at the same time, they have max evasion. Therefore, I suggest that Terror should also have the chance to disable (or lower)  the Evasion rate starting @ hero level 5 (or 6 perhaps?).
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torque
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Reply #20 on: September 07, 2015, 05:00:22 PM

OD will likely to be implemented tier level uniqueness as suggested here.

The feedback I received from here, is that, we try, try not to nerf any class but improve the weak side.

I have some questions for the floor,

  • If everyone agree that STR and INT can kill all types, what kind of improvement would you see toward a Class (Agility), not specified hero?
  • Agility heroes have better item efficiency at early start, 20% magic resistance by nature and faster turns, if AGI cannot kill, can they die easily?

Sometimes I feel bad that seems like I have made Agility heroes the man behind or a must have hero in Clan build.


AGILITY class is just tad too dependent on a lot of things in this game and other class rely so much on it for creeps.

Item - damage buff, max armor, hp buff, magic def, evasion

Compared to STR, no need for armor and no need for items that give high physical damage

Compared to INT, primary source of damage is mana, so buffing only primary stat to boost it, much much easier. At the same time, buff manashield for def.

Training - 3 books: backstab, dark talisman, chain helmet

Compared to STR, only 2, beast and a few dark talisman(not even a must).

Compared to INT, only 2, mantle and dark talisman.
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lonelykidz
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Reply #21 on: September 07, 2015, 05:46:22 PM

Dear LoD,

If DR damage is increased, burize should increase it's damage as well.
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Hennrick
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Reply #22 on: September 07, 2015, 05:53:54 PM

Based on the feedbacks here those who are abusing the late game capabilities of int heroes doesnt want these changes to be implemented since they will be balanced with Agility heroes.

Let's give it a try guys.

I agree with Xiang, Agility heroes can break mana shield with good items and terror.

@sttomato, somehow i agree with u changing it to lower %.

Thank you LOD, agility heroes has been highlighted and reworked after years. Youve been working ahrd to improve the classes not to nerf them.

For the coming rounds every heroes here in WD is exceptional and can counter each other Cheesy



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HaTE
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Reply #23 on: September 07, 2015, 06:10:54 PM

Since it's going to be a fun round, I would also be bold to request use of Multiple (yes multies) account this round to test different changes.

To ensure that my multi accounts are not helping me abuse the system or gaining unfair advantage over others, I shall make multiple accounts and notify LOD (or any designated moderator) about my created accounts so they can monitor and ban me if I'm using multiple accounts to help myself (i.e. assisting my own self to secure a kill etc.).

My sole reason to request use of multi accounts this round is to make sure I can check / test offered changes (i.e. Centaur, Al-Chemist and Obsidian Destroyer).
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Reply #24 on: September 07, 2015, 06:17:24 PM

Hold on to your panties people. LOD said:
Quote
Next round is un-audited Fun Round, there will be daily Side shuffle includes clan-less players. Official round 63 will be arranged on Oct.
I strongly welcome the BKB change. Now it's on same level with Butterfly.

And YES Obsidian's change (if it is what I think it is) is needed to bring him to the same tier / level as Ogre Magi and Death Prophet.

Please LOD, can you explain what changes in OD, Warlock and Alchemist we're going to see?

Also, kindly:
  • Give Ogre Magi MultiCast on healing since he is unable to use his uniqueness (unlike other INT heroes) for Reaper Scythe.
  • Give Fizzled spells are refund. 60% on the same fizzle rates as previous round or improve the fizzle rate (i.e. it should fizzle less as you level up) and fizzle refund mana value to 50%. Also, since BKB need 0 mana to block spells next round, it makes more sense if Fizzled spells start refunding mana.

I mean this is a "Testing" round so why not try above mentioned changes? Also there are few notable changes mentioned here ( http://forum.dotahomer.com/index.php?topic=4262.0 )
Bkb match butter...  what a stupid way to BALANCE... HaTE has proven his hate for a particular class and trying every hook n crook to make them dead
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0rgaZm
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Reply #25 on: September 07, 2015, 06:36:20 PM

Can i ask what does un-audited round means? Is multi legal? Or is this a trap to see who really are multi gamers here :-D
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McMasTeR
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Reply #26 on: September 07, 2015, 06:37:47 PM

Can i ask what does un-audited round means? Is multi legal? Or is this a trap to see who really are multi gamers here :-D
it means, no record will be kept in http://www.webdota.net/ranking.php
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McMasTeR
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Reply #27 on: September 07, 2015, 06:39:32 PM

  • Terror will not work against Agility heroes and no return damage will now work on consecutive attacks

Hi LOD,

Decreasing the mana of Terror by from 500 to 200 makes the AGI heroes killing themselves.
Now, we are solving it by making Terror only works definitely against INT  types? This is totally not good at all.

We need to come up a better balancing solution. Right now, we can't kill both STR and INT with huge HP and Mana even with late game items. Agi heroes are time bound. They cannot compete well because of time controlled laning system. Before we have our items, lanes are already about to close. And we cannot approximate how much effort we need because of the possibility of all lanes being closed already. If it's fixed, then we can plan ahead how to build our heroes.

The only hero type that AGI can kill is AGI as well. Terror is fine as long as the mana requirement is average (400-500). So that we cannot spam it against AGI. If this spell will no longer work against AGI, it's more totally imbalance. We cannot kill all types of heroes already!

STR heroes can kill all types.
INT heroes can do the same.
AGI is totally left behind!

OD will likely to be implemented tier level uniqueness as suggested here.

The feedback I received from here, is that, we try, try not to nerf any class but improve the weak side.

I have some questions for the floor,

  • If everyone agree that STR and INT can kill all types, what kind of improvement would you see toward a Class (Agility), not specified hero?
  • Agility heroes have better item efficiency at early start, 20% magic resistance by nature and faster turns, if AGI cannot kill, can they die easily?

Sometimes I feel bad that seems like I have made Agility heroes the man behind or a must have hero in Clan build.

Part C
6. That is my creep
Str and Int hero is now able to creep on their own. Creeps are no more shared among clan members.
For str hero, str stat x 10 attack to creep / str stat reduce 1.5 x attack from creep
For int hero, int stat x 10 attack to creep / int stat reduce 1.5 x attack from creep
For agi hero, attack x 2 attack to creep / armor reduce 1.5 x attack from creep

7. Midas 2.0
Midas 5000 gold - now instantly kill a creep below 65% give the user 20% gold bonus. (does not effect gold sharing)
Recipe 3500/top > Glove of haste 1500/center
Glove of haste 1500 gold/center - instantly kill a creep below 40%
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McMasTeR
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Reply #28 on: September 07, 2015, 06:40:32 PM

Still hoping to see game balance

Magic
Sunder spell leaves target with minimum 30% of max hp instead of 50%
Sunder Health spell that only available to Lina Inverse and Holy Knight leaves target with minimum 40% of max hp instead of 50%
Reaper's Scythe - Deals 0.25 damage per health point missing, increase success rate by 10%, require 2000 mana
Terror up to 300 Mana, work up to 2 consecutive attacks. Reduce 100/85/70% target armor

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shenron
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Reply #29 on: September 07, 2015, 06:41:32 PM

its really hard to use agi nowadays  Cry Cry Cry
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