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Author Topic: Round 62F - Changes & Discussion  (Read 40216 times)
shenron
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Reply #90 on: September 10, 2015, 01:20:12 PM

Quick fix for next RD:

1. Eaglehorn price reduced from 16000g to 13500g
* matching Reaver and Mystic
* reduced effectiveness of Butterfly's evasion due to MKB
* enhance usage of MJ

2. HoT's sunder block chance reduced from 40% to 30%, recipe price reduce from 5500g to 1000g (new HoT total price will be 20500g)
* matching new Butterfly price as much as possible (refer to #1, now will be 17250g) and Shiva's 19000g
* reduced block on sunder is to balance the trend of STR being too hard to be killed

3. MKB recipe price increased from 2000g to 4000g, requires Demon Edge and TWO Javelin, total price of 9700g, damage increased from 80 to 110.
* too good as a counter for evasion, a higher price required for such effect
* at the same time, an increased damage on the item makes it more valuable for a slot

4. Desolator recipe price reduced from 7500g to 6000g, requires TWO Hammer, total price of 8000g (reduced from 8500g).
* easier to build up (by getting the 2 Hammer first, and less gold saving needed for the recipe)
* better pricing for an underused item

5. Ring of Health price reduced from 7500g to 6000g.
* overpriced for an underpower item, which only brought because needing as an ingredient

6. Point Booster price reduced from 7500g to 5500g.
* the effect of this item is balance of the other 2 Booster, no reason for it to be the most expensive one

7. Soul Booster recipe reduced from 2500g to 1000g, HP and MP boost from 20% reduced to 15%
* total price (combined with #6) will reduce from 21000g to 17500g.
* reduced effect to match lower price, and also to balance one of the best late game item for STR and INT

8. Bloodstone HP and MP boost from 25% reduced to 20%
* total price (due to #5 and #7) will reduce from 40500g (one of the most expensive item in game) to 35500g.
* reduced effect for the extremely strong item for STR and INT (i see this as one small indirect boost on AGI)

9. Hood of Defiance reduced resist from 40% to 30%
* a reduced effect due to lower total cost (refer #5).
* also making STR easier to get killed by spells (STR heroes are the one getting the most value from HoD)

Extra:
10. Remake of Aghanim Scepter, requires Ogre Axe, Blade of Alacrity and Staff of Wizardry, recipe 7500g (total price 22500g). Effect +20 to all Stat and:
STR = Gain 10% increased total damage when using Enrage
AGI = Gain 10% increased total damage when using Terror
INT = Gain 10% spell effectiveness
* a rounded item for all 3 classes.
* balanced effect, players may choose to have it or not to get it, not a must item.

i like this, most specially with MKB and AS  Kiss Kiss Kiss Kiss
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HaTE
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Reply #91 on: September 10, 2015, 04:08:56 PM

Extra:
10. Remake of Aghanim Scepter, requires Ogre Axe, Blade of Alacrity and Staff of Wizardry, recipe 7500g (total price 22500g). Effect +20 to all Stat and:
STR = Gain 10% increased total damage when using Enrage
AGI = Gain 10% increased total damage when using Terror
INT = Gain 10% spell effectiveness
* a rounded item for all 3 classes.
* balanced effect, players may choose to have it or not to get it, not a must item.
All other proposed item changes look good on paper. But they're just reduce / increase in stat and pricing. However, the Aghanim Scepter is a very expensive item offering a very nominal reward. It's the sole reason why this item was made less than 10 times in past round (I made it and then regretted making it Grin).

The question here is, the amount that you're investing in Aghanim Scepter (current total cost = 45,000 and your suggested cost 22,500), same amount invested in primary stat's training (i.e. Ice Mantle Training for INT, Beast Training for STR and BackStab training for AGI) gives even better damage output to the individual classes.

So for a very minor incentive, investing into this item is a bad choice. However, if the incentive is doubled, then may be.. Perhaps.. Meh.. Grin.
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StTomato
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Reply #92 on: September 10, 2015, 05:53:41 PM

Extra:
10. Remake of Aghanim Scepter, requires Ogre Axe, Blade of Alacrity and Staff of Wizardry, recipe 7500g (total price 22500g). Effect +20 to all Stat and:
STR = Gain 10% increased total damage when using Enrage
AGI = Gain 10% increased total damage when using Terror
INT = Gain 10% spell effectiveness
* a rounded item for all 3 classes.
* balanced effect, players may choose to have it or not to get it, not a must item.
All other proposed item changes look good on paper. But they're just reduce / increase in stat and pricing. However, the Aghanim Scepter is a very expensive item offering a very nominal reward. It's the sole reason why this item was made less than 10 times in past round (I made it and then regretted making it Grin).

The question here is, the amount that you're investing in Aghanim Scepter (current total cost = 45,000 and your suggested cost 22,500), same amount invested in primary stat's training (i.e. Ice Mantle Training for INT, Beast Training for STR and BackStab training for AGI) gives even better damage output to the individual classes.

So for a very minor incentive, investing into this item is a bad choice. However, if the incentive is doubled, then may be.. Perhaps.. Meh.. Grin.

haha, ya just amending numbers for these items. too bad late for fun round testing.

as for AS, u compare to training:
(a) Book of Wisdom x 2 = 31000g = 16 to all Stats
(b) 2 Ice 2 Dark 2 Beast = 42000g = 20 to all Stats
(c) 3 main Stat training = 21000g = 30 to main Stat
(d) New AS = 22500g = 20 to all Stats, and extra 10% damage increase for all classes

a and b are definitely beaten by d.

as for c, lets see is the extra 10 main stat is better than 10% damage increase:

STR, 10str x 70hp x 15% enrage = 105 dmg. for 105 dmg, AS effect will beat up the 10str when he has 100str (100str x 70hp x 15% enrage x 10% AS) = 105 dmg. I have yet to count how useful the 20 INT is, for casting more Enrage.

AGI, 10agi... i dont need to do any calculation. 10% increased in total damage is definitely better than 10 AGI.

INT, as per STR. 10 INT currently gives a boost of roughly 72-180 spell damage, definitely beat up by the 10% spell effectiveness.

And ONCE AGAIN, I emphasis that any ITEM, should be at the border of "should I get this, or not?" instead of "OK, this item is a MUST". Strategy is made when you need to choose, decide, thats what you call strategic decision. I wont make the 10% any stronger, not even by 1%.
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shenron
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Reply #93 on: September 10, 2015, 06:16:19 PM

Extra:
10. Remake of Aghanim Scepter, requires Ogre Axe, Blade of Alacrity and Staff of Wizardry, recipe 7500g (total price 22500g). Effect +20 to all Stat and:
STR = Gain 10% increased total damage when using Enrage
AGI = Gain 10% increased total damage when using Terror
INT = Gain 10% spell effectiveness
* a rounded item for all 3 classes.
* balanced effect, players may choose to have it or not to get it, not a must item.
All other proposed item changes look good on paper. But they're just reduce / increase in stat and pricing. However, the Aghanim Scepter is a very expensive item offering a very nominal reward. It's the sole reason why this item was made less than 10 times in past round (I made it and then regretted making it Grin).

The question here is, the amount that you're investing in Aghanim Scepter (current total cost = 45,000 and your suggested cost 22,500), same amount invested in primary stat's training (i.e. Ice Mantle Training for INT, Beast Training for STR and BackStab training for AGI) gives even better damage output to the individual classes.

So for a very minor incentive, investing into this item is a bad choice. However, if the incentive is doubled, then may be.. Perhaps.. Meh.. Grin.

haha, ya just amending numbers for these items. too bad late for fun round testing.

as for AS, u compare to training:
(a) Book of Wisdom x 2 = 31000g = 16 to all Stats
(b) 2 Ice 2 Dark 2 Beast = 42000g = 20 to all Stats
(c) 3 main Stat training = 21000g = 30 to main Stat
(d) New AS = 22500g = 20 to all Stats, and extra 10% damage increase for all classes

a and b are definitely beaten by d.

as for c, lets see is the extra 10 main stat is better than 10% damage increase:

STR, 10str x 70hp x 15% enrage = 105 dmg. for 105 dmg, AS effect will beat up the 10str when he has 100str (100str x 70hp x 15% enrage x 10% AS) = 105 dmg. I have yet to count how useful the 20 INT is, for casting more Enrage.

AGI, 10agi... i dont need to do any calculation. 10% increased in total damage is definitely better than 10 AGI.

INT, as per STR. 10 INT currently gives a boost of roughly 72-180 spell damage, definitely beat up by the 10% spell effectiveness.

And ONCE AGAIN, I emphasis that any ITEM, should be at the border of "should I get this, or not?" instead of "OK, this item is a MUST". Strategy is made when you need to choose, decide, thats what you call strategic decision. I wont make the 10% any stronger, not even by 1%.

can you add for AS the percentage of spell effectiveness, thank you.  Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #94 on: September 10, 2015, 06:18:54 PM

haha, ya just amending numbers for these items. too bad late for fun round testing.

as for AS, u compare to training:
(a) Book of Wisdom x 2 = 31000g = 16 to all Stats
(b) 2 Ice 2 Dark 2 Beast = 42000g = 20 to all Stats
(c) 3 main Stat training = 21000g = 30 to main Stat
(d) New AS = 22500g = 20 to all Stats, and extra 10% damage increase for all classes

a and b are definitely beaten by d.

as for c, lets see is the extra 10 main stat is better than 10% damage increase:

STR, 10str x 70hp x 15% enrage = 105 dmg. for 105 dmg, AS effect will beat up the 10str when he has 100str (100str x 70hp x 15% enrage x 10% AS) = 105 dmg. I have yet to count how useful the 20 INT is, for casting more Enrage.

AGI, 10agi... i dont need to do any calculation. 10% increased in total damage is definitely better than 10 AGI.

INT, as per STR. 10 INT currently gives a boost of roughly 72-180 spell damage, definitely beat up by the 10% spell effectiveness.

And ONCE AGAIN, I emphasis that any ITEM, should be at the border of "should I get this, or not?" instead of "OK, this item is a MUST". Strategy is made when you need to choose, decide, thats what you call strategic decision. I wont make the 10% any stronger, not even by 1%.
I'm glad that you went through all the calculations instead of (what most people do here) started throwing random irrelevant stuff.

I haven't study you calculations yet (I'm driving) but apparently, you didn't consider one major factor in your calculation that all the trainings "don't take any slot". So with all stats you get from training, you still have a "slot" free. And I think we don't even need to argue about the value of a slot. Considering the "slot" factor entirely changes the whole picture. I hope you would agree.
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StTomato
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Reply #95 on: September 10, 2015, 07:51:45 PM

haha, ya just amending numbers for these items. too bad late for fun round testing.

as for AS, u compare to training:
(a) Book of Wisdom x 2 = 31000g = 16 to all Stats
(b) 2 Ice 2 Dark 2 Beast = 42000g = 20 to all Stats
(c) 3 main Stat training = 21000g = 30 to main Stat
(d) New AS = 22500g = 20 to all Stats, and extra 10% damage increase for all classes

a and b are definitely beaten by d.

as for c, lets see is the extra 10 main stat is better than 10% damage increase:

STR, 10str x 70hp x 15% enrage = 105 dmg. for 105 dmg, AS effect will beat up the 10str when he has 100str (100str x 70hp x 15% enrage x 10% AS) = 105 dmg. I have yet to count how useful the 20 INT is, for casting more Enrage.

AGI, 10agi... i dont need to do any calculation. 10% increased in total damage is definitely better than 10 AGI.

INT, as per STR. 10 INT currently gives a boost of roughly 72-180 spell damage, definitely beat up by the 10% spell effectiveness.

And ONCE AGAIN, I emphasis that any ITEM, should be at the border of "should I get this, or not?" instead of "OK, this item is a MUST". Strategy is made when you need to choose, decide, thats what you call strategic decision. I wont make the 10% any stronger, not even by 1%.
I'm glad that you went through all the calculations instead of (what most people do here) started throwing random irrelevant stuff.

I haven't study you calculations yet (I'm driving) but apparently, you didn't consider one major factor in your calculation that all the trainings "don't take any slot". So with all stats you get from training, you still have a "slot" free. And I think we don't even need to argue about the value of a slot. Considering the "slot" factor entirely changes the whole picture. I hope you would agree.

just compare to SnY 20000g. new AS is more rounded and late game efficient than SnY.
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Reply #96 on: September 11, 2015, 11:20:29 PM

If Black King Bar will block any spell without any mana cost, i suggest make it to level 4 item again.
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Reply #97 on: September 12, 2015, 12:26:10 PM

Fix, batch 2:

Part 1, regarding "attack" item having uneven % (STR/INT 50%, AGI 70%) :

1. base HP from 150 increase to 700
* currently say a STR hero, after some hours with 40 STR = 150 + (40x70) = 2950HP
* while an AGI/INT hero will start probably only 25 STR = 150 + (25x70) = 1900HP, a STR having 64% more HP
* with 1000 base HP, 40 STR = 700 + (40x70) = 3500HP
* while AGI/INT with 25 STR = 700 + (25x70) = 2450HP, a STR now only having 43% more HP

2. attack item set back to 100% at all level, for ALL classes
* as per #1, now everyone has 550 HP more, attack item has to be stronger
* i suggest all 3 classes to be same at 100%, as that this encourages different sort of build
* i wish to see INT building "attack" strategy instead of just spell castings, in near future

3. STR no longer gives all heroes 1 attack damage, instead, each main Stat gives 1 extra attack for the hero
(STR stat for STR, AGI stat for AGI, INT stat for INT)
* as AGI build up their Agi in early game, this will enhance their attack damage
* as STR hero get no benefit from this (same as per current), and INT barely need attack, this is a little buff to the AGI
* and also for long run (to mid/late), this shall provides AGI a slight buff

4. extra adjustment similar to this, base MP from 150 increase to 350.
* an extra 200 mana can help AGI to easier getting 1 more cast of 400 mana Terror
* and a base 150 MP is just around 2 point of INT, it doesnt make much sense for base to be that low
(i know that this is from real DotA, but real DotA int dont give 70 mp)

Part 2, regarding INT spells. Currently I see that Lina and Holy Knight get special spells as their uniqueness.
I see this as considerably unfair, unless all INT are differentiate through unique spells.
Also this current setting limit the play style of selected INT heroes.

1. Remove Sunder Health. Remake Sunder now only swap HP, leaving minimum 45% HP on target (in other word, new Sunder = old Sunder Health)
2. Amend Mana Burn to AGI only.
3. Add Mana Drain, level 2 spell and for INT only, draining a portion of target's mana for caster. (to compensate INT strategy of using Sunder to swap enemy INT mana)

Part 3, regarding weird scaling of Enrage that is too heavy on mana cost in early game and too powerful and cheap in late game.
1. Reduced mana cost from 600/500/400/300 to 450/400/350/300
2. Reduced damage from 8/10/12/15% to 6/8/10/12%

Math as per Part 1, (level 1, 40 STR, 24 INT)
New Enrage = 3500 HP x 6% = 210 damage able to cast 4 times due to cheaper mana = 840 damage
Old system and old Enrage = 40x70+150HP x 8% =  236 damage able to cast 3 times = 708 damage
An improvement in early game, but definitely weaker later (level 4 onward with same mana cost but lower 3% HP damage)
Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 12:07:16 PM by StTomato Logged
McMasTeR
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Reply #98 on: September 12, 2015, 05:52:46 PM



Magic
  • Terror will not work against Agility heroes and zero return damage will now work on consecutive attacks

1. Terror not working on consecutive attacks

2. Terror not working on return damage too.
Fantastic, enemy received up to 100 damage !
 You received 103 damage in return from enemy !
Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 06:54:45 PM by McMasTeR Logged

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Reply #99 on: September 13, 2015, 12:17:12 AM

Fix, batch 2:

Part 1, regarding "attack" item having uneven % (STR/INT 50%, AGI 70%) :

1. base HP from 150 increase to 700
* currently say a STR hero, after some hours with 40 STR = 150 + (40x70) = 2950HP
* while an AGI/INT hero will start probably only 25 STR = 150 + (25x70) = 1900HP, a STR having 64% more HP
* with 1000 base HP, 40 STR = 700 + (40x70) = 3500HP
* while AGI/INT with 25 STR = 700 + (25x70) = 2450HP, a STR now only having 43% more HP

2. attack item set back to 100% at all level, for ALL classes
* as per #1, now everyone has 550 HP more, attack item has to be stronger
* i suggest all 3 classes to be same at 100%, as that this encourages different sort of build
* i wish to see INT building "attack" strategy instead of just spell castings, in near future

3. STR no longer gives all heroes 1 attack damage, instead, each main Stat gives 1 extra attack for the hero
(STR stat for STR, AGI stat for AGI, INT stat for INT)
* as AGI build up their Agi in early game, this will enhance their attack damage
* as STR hero get no benefit from this (same as per current), and INT barely need attack, this is a little buff to the AGI
* and also for long run (to mid/late), this shall provides AGI a slight buff

4. extra adjustment similar to this, base MP from 150 increase to 350.
* an extra 200 mana can help AGI to easier getting 1 more cast of 400 mana Terror
* and a base 150 MP is just around 2 point of INT, it doesnt make much sense for base to be that low
(i know that this is from real DotA, but real DotA int dont give 70 mp)

Part 2, regarding INT spells. Currently I see that Lina and Holy Knight get special spells as their uniqueness.
I see this as considerably unfair, unless all INT are differentiate through unique spells.
Also this current setting limit the play style of selected INT heroes.

1. Remove Sunder Health. Remake Sunder now only swap HP, leaving minimum 45% HP on target (in other word, new Sunder = old Sunder Health)
2. Amend Mana Burn to AGI only.
3. Add Mana Drain, level 2 spell and for INT only, draining a portion of target's mana for caster. (to compensate INT strategy of using Sunder to swap enemy INT mana)



Nice suggestions
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Reply #100 on: September 13, 2015, 06:16:19 PM

Fix, batch 2:

Part 1, regarding "attack" item having uneven % (STR/INT 50%, AGI 70%) :

1. base HP from 150 increase to 700
* currently say a STR hero, after some hours with 40 STR = 150 + (40x70) = 2950HP
* while an AGI/INT hero will start probably only 25 STR = 150 + (25x70) = 1900HP, a STR having 64% more HP
* with 1000 base HP, 40 STR = 700 + (40x70) = 3500HP
* while AGI/INT with 25 STR = 700 + (25x70) = 2450HP, a STR now only having 43% more HP

2. attack item set back to 100% at all level, for ALL classes
* as per #1, now everyone has 550 HP more, attack item has to be stronger
* i suggest all 3 classes to be same at 100%, as that this encourages different sort of build
* i wish to see INT building "attack" strategy instead of just spell castings, in near future

3. STR no longer gives all heroes 1 attack damage, instead, each main Stat gives 1 extra attack for the hero
(STR stat for STR, AGI stat for AGI, INT stat for INT)
* as AGI build up their Agi in early game, this will enhance their attack damage
* as STR hero get no benefit from this (same as per current), and INT barely need attack, this is a little buff to the AGI
* and also for long run (to mid/late), this shall provides AGI a slight buff

4. extra adjustment similar to this, base MP from 150 increase to 350.
* an extra 200 mana can help AGI to easier getting 1 more cast of 400 mana Terror
* and a base 150 MP is just around 2 point of INT, it doesnt make much sense for base to be that low
(i know that this is from real DotA, but real DotA int dont give 70 mp)

Part 2, regarding INT spells. Currently I see that Lina and Holy Knight get special spells as their uniqueness.
I see this as considerably unfair, unless all INT are differentiate through unique spells.
Also this current setting limit the play style of selected INT heroes.

1. Remove Sunder Health. Remake Sunder now only swap HP, leaving minimum 45% HP on target (in other word, new Sunder = old Sunder Health)
2. Amend Mana Burn to AGI only.
3. Add Mana Drain, level 2 spell and for INT only, draining a portion of target's mana for caster. (to compensate INT strategy of using Sunder to swap enemy INT mana)


All suggestions are good and 3rd one is very good...
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Reply #101 on: September 13, 2015, 06:35:45 PM

As an agi player, I could see all the hate on Agi with these changes instead of helping it.

Agi can't kill str. Agi can kill int, but mana shield makes it difficult especially with butterfly, and now Terror can't be targeted on agi enemy hero.
So who can agi kill only? Creeps! Yes only creeps!!

So what is Agi's use? Only creep and mana burn! WTF is this?

Yes so many changes but always focusing on STR and INT.

AGI is already underpowered, but why stil nerf it?

SA from 3 damage per agi point become 1/2/3 per agi point.
AM's mana burn nerferd as well.
SF only changed to kill fellow agi.
Ursa 50% bonus damage per 5 consecutive attacks.. really underpowered
Weaver conditionally full hp restoration but people just skip 5/10/15/20, easily countered
BS 20% extra attack damage to target with less than 20% of hp pool and restore 80% of hp based on enemy's hp pool when killed - when str got 10k hp, can 20% damage only when hp is 2k? and 20% so little.. I won't even need hp restore since I've got healers.
Viper Armor works against spell damage at 40% max & 70% more return damage - i think this is the most balance agi hero.. nice def but no damage just like tide.
Gorgon - 50% more armor effectiveness & regenerate 1 mana for every 5 attacking damage points - same with Viper..

If there will be no changes, I can't see playing AGI again and will start to go play other class again. I love playing AGI because of the number of turns I can accumulate but with this being at the bottom of the foodchain, agis turns just are useless..

or maybe not.. agi is only for creeping..
Agi need around 8 turns per creep. 8*4 = 32 turns
Agi also help at least 2 teammates to creep. 32*2 = 64 turns
that's already 96 turns per day.. and very little turns left for killing and making a living for himself..

I am still hoping to see something change for agi someday!
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Reply #102 on: September 13, 2015, 06:44:49 PM

agi was meant to feed always.  Grin

I just played agi to help my teammates. thats the only reason why agi existed in this game.

They say that Agi have imba damage. Well ive been saying that agi always sacrifices DEFENSE for damage. unlike int when pumping Ints has mana shield and str heroes have high hp when they pump str.

How about agi? pumping damage? we cant even max our armor at lvl 3 onwards. atleast make agi easier to pump Armor and make terror work on cons turns.

Been enduring this gameplay every round.

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Reply #103 on: September 13, 2015, 08:28:09 PM

Yes yes, don't play agi, soon there would be any agi left other then multies. So no creep for everyone= balance
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Reply #104 on: September 13, 2015, 10:32:26 PM

boyott the usage of agi Cheesy
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